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Keep at it, Anon!


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Aching to post but don't want to pollute the progress general with nonsense? Post here instead.
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Good god I'm going to have an existential crisis just looking at playtesters for other games, I won't be able to handle watching someone play my game. I'll lose my fucking mind and go on a shooting spree or something.

I can completely understand why games put yellow paint everywhere and make someone constantly give you voice lines telling you what to do and force you through overbearing annoying tutorials. There are absolutely fucking braindead zombies out there pretending to be humans. Like the game's primary menu has 3 things in it and people wont look at it long enough to understand what to do nor will they try to interact with any of the UI elements.

They will make a critically important discovery about game mechanics, they will even vocalize that discovery like "oh if you do X then Y", but then, I don't fucking understand how, they will play as if they never made that discovery and get fucked over and over and over and will not at all attempt use the information they just learned 5 seconds ago.
Replies: >>2139 >>2144
>>2138
this is because most people are taught to be mindless slaves, just think about it like this: it makes it more likely you can profit off of them. That should put your mood back to positive.
Replies: >>2140 >>2141
>>2139
>just think about it like this: it makes it more likely you can profit off of them. That should put your mood back to positive.
Well-spoken, am I right ((( fellow White man )))?
Replies: >>2142
>>2139
>it makes it more likely you can profit off of them
It doesn't if your goal is to make a good game. A good game respects the player's ability to think and play the game and make decisions. If you want to sell your game to golems then you have to make the game worse to humans who have a soul.

The best way to solve this would be to create your game as you want and then add a retard mode later, but the problem is that you can't get people to pick the correct mode. If you call it "retard journalist mode", nobody wants to think they're the retard so nobody will pick it. If you call the retard mode "normal mode", and call the normal mode "gamer mode", then a lot of people will think the gamer mode is a special challenge mode and will pick the retard mode instead, and a lot of retards will think they're "gamers" and pick the gamer mode instead of the retard mode.
Replies: >>2142
>>2140
I fully admit it sounds kiked but the fact that kikes can take advantage of so many people proves that people are susceptible to it. Might as well benefit as well, right?

>>2141
or just make a good game and a soulless cashgrab and make both something good and something profitable
Replies: >>2143
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>>2142
>Might as well benefit as well, right?
"Corrupt is as corrupt does", they tell me.
Replies: >>2145
>>2138
discerning whether you suck at explaining things to players or whether the playtester is actually braindead is a  skill in itself. when i playtested my game i'd tell them my job is to sit back, shut up and watch them play, then i just take notes on my phone of what they did, any bugs they encountered, where they got stuck and how it can be resolved, etc. i'd only help them if they explicitly asked them or if they were about to do something that i knew would softlock them. you might want to playtest it with people that know vidya works and then work back from there.
Replies: >>2146 >>2147
>>2143
Knowing the difference between taking advantage of a system that you can't change and having a moral obligation to abstain from participating in a system to stop perpetuating it are two different things. If I personally don't make games that exploit tendencies in people I'm just gimping myself. I mean if I wanted to fight the system at all I'd be being a terrorist or something right? But I don't want to do that, I want to make games. So just, add stuff to your games that makes it more likely to sell. Well how do you do that? Well, you take advantage of the plethora of idiots. Does that make me bad? Does it mean I love devil worshippers who rape children in DC? No, it means I wanna make games and I know that gullible idiots are a dime a dozen and they like it when games have a pet the dog mechanic or proximity chat or childishly cartoony horror mascots or whatever. What's the harm in adding those? Does making a deckbuilder roguelite autobattler with cute girls mean I'm supporting the bignose tribe in their dominion of the world? No it means I made a game that appeals to people, dummy. It's like refusing to drink alcohol in europe fifteen hundred years ago on moral grounds; No you dummy, it's safer than water right then, right there. You can still drink water if you're careful and know it isn't from some polluted river but it doesn't mean you're better off doing it as a rule, even if in an ideal society all the water is clean. Because you're more likely to be imperiled by that decision. And you don't even have to become an alcoholic, you can just drink a little bit! You see what I mean?
>>2144
this is good advice. Bonus: You can positively respond to advice from good playtesters and negatively respond to advice from bad playtesters to benefit from both. If a good playtester suggests an addition, you could try that addition out; if a bad playtester suggests an addition, you could try removing complications from what they were trying at the time. Just like how when you look at reviews for products and a well-thought-out review you can take at face value, but a poorly-written review you can read between the lines and see what they did wrong and if they just misunderstood an intended function of the product or something.
>>2144
>discerning whether you suck at explaining things to players or whether the playtester is actually braindead
Sometimes there's just no ambiguity. If the player shoots a shield-holding enemy and the bullets just make "clink" sounds and the enemy just won't die, then they try melee and the shield flies away, then the player says, out loud, "oh you can destroy their shield with melee", but then continues to shoot at shielded enemies and losing for the rest of the playtest, there's no other way to interpret that than the player not being a human.

>i'd only help them if they explicitly asked
That's exactly what you're NOT supposed to do. You're only allowed to talk to the player if they're getting blocked by some bug or obvious game design mistake or ambiguity that you'll fix/improve later and already know how you're going to do it, that blocker would not actually happen in the final game so watching them struggle with it isn't useful to anyone.

The player isn't going to have the developer giving them advice or comments in a real gameplay scenario, the moments of struggle are exactly what you want: to learn what the players struggle with and how, and what kinds of things they try to do as a result, for example there might be a specific menu where they try looking at. There's a lot of things that players don't understand at first and it might seem like a mistake from your part, but that's just because they're new and they'll soon learn as they play more. The more you interact with the player the more you distort the whole playtest into something unnatural and unhelpful, in fact the ideal playthrough would not even have you watching because people act differently when they know they're being watched.

Also, as soon as you start helping the player, you're conditioning them to think less and pay less attention, and they become more likely to rely on you. This is why streamers suck at games despite playing them all day every day, because they condition themselves to look at the chat for answers instead of using their own brain to problem solve. It's also why yellow paint and quest markers and minimaps are counter-productive, because you're teaching players to be handheld through the game instead of learning to pay attention to the actual game world.
Replies: >>2149
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How are you, anon?
Replies: >>2150 >>2151 >>2155
>>2147
>there's no other way to interpret that than the player not being a human.
then write them off as being retarded. if several other people make the same mistake then it means you're not communicating the mechanics clearly enough, or (unlikely) you got a huge batch of retards and you'll have to use your best judgment to discern.
>everything else
you're overthinking it
stop splitting hairs and work on your gaem and use your best judgment
you are working on a gaem right?
>>2148
(assuming you're addressing it to whoever)
pretty good, got a great many of checks taken off my to-do list today, regardless of their irrelevance to making games, but whatever I'm happy.
>>2148
sometimes i feel like the game will never be done, but i am continuing regardless
i will become yesdev and the next todd howard/yoko taro/kojombulous but actually good
Replies: >>2152 >>2153 >>2154
>>2151
not him but I believe in you
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>>2151
>>2151
All of those were good at making friends and making people work for them.
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>>2148
I just want to work on a game or some other project, but all of them have obstacles that I can't surpass. Maybe this is as far as I can go. You guys go on without me.
Replies: >>2156
>>2155
Take a break if you need to, but don't give up on your dreams.
They will never come true unless you're the one who cares for them.
How long does it take to make something brilliant like Outer Wilds? Apparently the game was in development for seven or more years.
Replies: >>2162 >>2164
>>2161
Seven or more years, obvs. Stay the course, Anon.
>>2161
you need a team to even attempt it
Almost 1 million signatures on the EU petition, while the UK is at 130k.
Replies: >>2166
>>2165
Oh no, now we will need to hire 50 lawyers and invest gorillion dollars and pay for servers for infinite years if we want to release a pong clone, that's what I heard!
Replies: >>2172 >>2186
>>2166
I don't think any yesdev anon is chasing the live service gravy train. Like money would be nice but anons want to share experiences in the form of vidya, right?
Replies: >>2173
>>2172
Even with live service games it only affects extra greedy turds who try to resell the same game over and over by disabling previous versions.
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Kircode lives, apparently.
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=2mP8GgWapQA
Replies: >>2175
>>2174
That's great. I don't see where he's going with this though. "Action adventures" are an extremely saturated genre with an extremely high quality ceiling, so you need much more than just bare minimum gameplay mechanics to make it appealing.
Replies: >>2176
>>2175
The visuals don't help either. I get that he probably wanted to try something other than his previous games' flat surfaces, but his current textures look more like smoothed noise than actual surfaces, and his player character animations are so distractingly bad that you'd be forgiven for not noticing the enemies or forgetting how much better his previous protagonists were.
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I don't know how anyone can tolerate Lua. The only good things about it are looping with pairs(), and the fact that you can format strings with string.format (unlike something like javascript which has no equivalent).
local array = {500, 1.2, 0.325254, 2.22222}
for key,value in pairs(array) do
	printf(string.format("[%s] = %.2f", key, value))
end
For comparison, in javascript you have to get the value manually, and you have to do annoying things to format strings.
let array = [500, 1.2, 0.325254, 2.22222];
for (let key in array) {
	let value = array[key];
	console.log("["+key+"] = "+value.toFixed(2));
	console.log(`[${key}] = ${value.toFixed(2)}`); // Alternative method using a template string.
}

The fact that you can modify crap from other files is also interesting, for example you can replace a function that exists in another file, without having to touch that file. I frequently see something like this:
local original_do_stuff = some_file.do_stuff
function some_file.do_stuff (x, y, z)
	-- Insert some patch code here.
	original_do_stuff(x, y, z)
end
If this is a feature of Lua itself, then I could see this being the reason why people say it's good for mods.


- Arrays are 1 indexed. It's not as bad as I would have thought, but having to change all my habits and learned tricks and way of approaching things sucks, and I don't see any benefit to it. Maybe it would be useful since 1 is the first item so you can treat 0 as none, however...
- ...Neither "" nor 0 equates to false, and you can't compare nil with a number. If you want to check if something is 0 or nil, you have to do if((not x) or (x == 0)) instead of just if(!x). Same with empty strings. I can only think of 1 context where I would want to accept an empty string instead of treating it similarly to undefined, and that's when you call a function that replaces nil with a default string but you specifically want it to be empty, but in all other cases it's the same as undefined to me. Similarly 0 means that there is none of something when I was asking for an amount, I'll usually want to check for it and branch out. This probably wouldn't be a problem in a type checked language, it's a problem in Lua because every single variable in the universe has the potential to also be nil.
- There's no differentiation between an array and an object/hashtable, there's just some weird combined amalgamation that starts behaving weirdly if you do the wrong thing. Array-related functions in general seem lackluster in Lua.
- The word-based syntax is cancer, especially the and/or shit, it doesn't make any sense when you start trying to do things like ternary conditionals.
- There's no "undefined" type. I never understood the purpose of js having both "undefined" and "null", but over time I've started to see some value in it. If you try to access an unset item from an array, you get undefined, but it may sometimes be useful to set an array item to an undefined value, in which case you would set it to null. There's a difference between an item not having a value or being disabled, and the item not existing in the first place.
- There's no single-line shorthands, for example in Javascript you can simplify things like this:
if (x) { foo(); }
if (x) foo();
some_value = some_value + 1;
some_value += 1;
But in Lua you cannot:
if (x) then foo() end
if (x) foo() -- Error.
some_value = some_value + 1
some_value += 1 -- Error.

I'm also starting to really get burned out from the typical scripting language shit. If you send a vector to a function and that function does something with it, it'll change the value of the original vector. You can't just send it by value. Duplicating the data of some object is a pain in the ass in general since everything is some kind of fucking hash table, and for similar reasons I become very uncomfortable when I need to store 10s of thousands of objects in some clusterfuck hierarchy. If you want to modify the data of a non-object, you also can't choose to send it as a pointer, you have to get the value from a return. I've also had a million crashes and every single one of them has been because I typoed or used the wrong a variable or the wrong function or function arguments were wrong or used the wrong object key or something ended up as nil because of some unexpected reason despite me checking for it everywhere. It's impossible to know that you did such a mistake until that piece of code tries to execute, which means you can't find it until after you've spent a whole minute launching the game and opening a save and doing the action you were trying to test.

All in all I can't understand why everyone is okay with languages like this. Maybe it's just because there's no good alternative, if you want a secure scripting language then what kind of language/runtime can you even use that has type checking and pointers/references and lets you actually control data? It just makes me keep coming back to admire how perfect C is. There's obviously many ways that C is lacking, but the fundamental concepts are so simple and effective that it's amazing how people managed to convince themselves not to have them in any language anymore. I can picture a language that would be like C except with various guard rails and high level conveniences and maybe even garbage collection, it sounds like an amazing language for scripting and probably for a lot of other things.
Replies: >>2181
>>2180
People use Lua because it's well established and very fast for a scripting language. And most of the time it doesn't need to do anything complex.
There is AngelScript which has a very C-with-classes syntax, but I never used it much, so can't say anything else about it. Which is another important thing - all Lua's pitfalls are already well known, but if you use something obscure you are completely on your own.
Replies: >>2182 >>2184
>>2181
LuaJIT* is very fast for a scripting language.
Replies: >>2183 >>2185
>>2182
>lua vs luajit
One thing to keep in mind is since luajit jits your code and has an interpreter written in assembly, it might not be available on some obscure architectures/systems, meanwhile plain lua works pretty much everywhere where you have a c compiler. And lua is right now at version 5.4 while luajit is lua 5.1 + random additions, so switching between the two might not be trivial.
>>2181
I understand why you might end up using it, but I hear nothing but praise about the language itself, as if it's a great language.
>>2182
Baseline Lua is still very fast. Faster than non-pypy Python in some cases, while having less overhead on each call. And pypy is an even bigger pain to embed than regular python, they didn't even have 64-bit version for windows until very recently.
>>2166
SKG doesn't want permanent provided servers, it wants games to not require private servers. Self-hosting servers fulfils the need and it's the way it was programmed in the beginning for all these games anyway.
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