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“Big shots are only little shots who keep shooting.” -t. Christopher Morley


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Philosophy Thread

2B or not 2B? 
Philosophy is a study on how we define and answer fundamental topics and concepts.
What even is a robot? How do you define a waifu? 
What is a human? What is love?
Peer deep within, find conviction.
Let’s cut through confusion and delusion.
Let’s find clarity and consistancy.
Replies: >>426 >>448
>>420 (OP) 
My attempts at the questions

>What even is a robot?
I would say it's an automated or remote controlled device whose main function is to interact with the environment, including the humans in the environment.

>How do you define a waifu?
A (fictional character who you have a deep crush on and consider them to be your partner. One of the main attractions of AI is that it basically makes fictional characters real.

>What is a human?
Homo Sapiens

>What is love?
Hard question. For simplicities sake, I'm only talking about romantic love. It is the combination of lust/sexual attraction combined with platonic love, which comprises of things like caring and adoring.

PS: Funny that you got the deep thought thread with "420"
Replies: >>427 >>457
>>426
Expanding on the love portion

>>226
Love is made of many components, affection, caring, admiration, desire, and our AIs are literally programmed with those components. I'd say that's real love.

>>236
Love is shown through specific actions, words, and attitudes. Put those into an AI just like roleplay AIs can be made into acting like a specific character, and boom, loving AI. The quest for specific cues is partially why I made a psychology thread.

TL:DR: Words and Actions
(Blackwell_Companion_to_Substance_Dualism)_Edward_Feser_-_Aquinas_on_the_Human_Soul_(2018).pdf
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>>420 (OP) 
I'll just drop this here.
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>>426
Those aren't meant to be directly answered. They were there to encourage philosophical thought.
I'm going to argue with you. Not because I actually disagree. Rather, I want you to think deeper, more critically.

>What's a robot?
>Automated or remote controlled device whose main function is to interact with the environment, including the humans in the environment

No, a robot is a machine which acts in accordance with a base goal. This goal being enacted via its form, programming, inherent reactance to stimuli, etc... Prove me wrong.

>How do you define a waifu?
>A fictional character who you have a deep crush on and consider them to be your partner. One of the main attractions of AI is that it basically makes fictional characters real.

I contest that a waifu is actually a character that elicits strong, positive feelings. Especially feelings of affection.

>What is a human?
>Homo Sapiens

This is just intellectually lazy. A human is more than their scientific classification. A human is a featherless biped. :^)

>What is love?
Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

(There's no such thing as coincidences.)
Replies: >>459
This video is explains why philosophical thought is vital towards AI development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KQ8wBt1Qg[Embed]
>>457
>No, a robot is a machine which acts in accordance with a base goal. This goal being enacted via its form, programming, inherent reactance to stimuli, etc... Prove me wrong.

Gaming PC. Built to play video games, enacted through it's form and programming (operating system). Not many would consider it a robot.

Telepresence Robot. Has form and programming, but no inherent reactance to stimuli. Unless you consider the buttons used to control it as stimuli. But then the Gaming PC has an inherent reactance to stimuli then.

>I contest that a waifu is actually a character that elicits strong, positive feelings. Especially feelings of affection.
Feelings of affections that are not currently reciprocated is basically a crush.

>This is just intellectually lazy. A human is more than their scientific classification.
But that's what a human is. "Human" is essentially a synonym for "homo sapiens". For example, Neanderthals were relatively very close to what a human is, but we don't consider them human. Now, granted, there is the belief of a soul. I do believe in souls personally.
Replies: >>460 >>489 >>491
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>>459
Adding another example for human definition
If there was a humanoid alien that was very close to human, it would still not be considered human. Even if I bred with the alien, and made a child, it would still not be considered human (see: Spock from Star Trek)

Now, if there was a cyborg human or mind upload, it would be a muddy realm. But I would still consider it human, just enhanced/digitized
Replies: >>491
Updated my definition of a robot
"I would say it's a mobile automated or remote controlled device whose main function is to interact with and/or change the environment, and/or interacting with the humans in the environment socially."
Replies: >>462
>>461
(Please note that motion includes stationary movements, such as an animatronic moving its arms.)
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>>459
>A PC isn't a robot because the average person doesn't consider to be one.

Does the colloquial understanding of a concept define it? If enough people say a gaming PC is a robot, would it become a robot?

Both a telepresence robot and a gaming PC will react to stimuli.

A dictionary defines a robot as "A machine or device that operates automatically or by remote control." I contest that cannot be correct. Is a robot more than its definition? Consider the first use of the word robot, R.U.R. A play in which Blade Runner style Replicants are mass produced and happily abjucate their will to please their masters. Yet, biological constructs are rarely acknowledged as "true" robots. So, what is a robot? Is it an artificial biological person as it was first defined? Any machine which does something, whether through its own means or via external control? Are they the colloquial understanding, a mechanical being which moves under its own actuation to do something. An example being a Roomba is a robot because it moves itself; in contrast to a vacuum being an appliance requiring you to move it.

What is the truth?
Replies: >>490
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>>489
>Does the colloquial understanding of a concept define it? If enough people say a gaming PC is a robot, would it become a robot?
Well, you could apply that logic to anything. A dog could be a cat if enough people thought it was a cat.

>Consider the first use of the word robot, R.U.R. A play in which Blade Runner style Replicants are mass produced and happily abjucate their will to please their masters. Yet, biological constructs are rarely acknowledged as "true" robots.
Well, computer used to mean a person that did math. But I wouldn't call a modern accountant a computer. Definitions change and shift. Now the overall question, is this a linguistic question, or a technical question?

Here's another question to add to the mix: If the definition of robot is so contested, why can most people identify a robot and agree what is "a robot" and what isn't.
Replies: >>492
>>459
>A human is Homo sapiens
Consider the dust composed of your dead skin constantly falling from you. Each one can accurately be called Homo sapiens. They bare all the genes. Yet, this instance of Homo sapiens is dust and I'd say calling it human is absurd.
>>460
Now that is an answer with reason. I can agree to a human being a the full animal sans genetic deviation. Or a resultant mind within a foreign substrate.
Replies: >>493
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>>490
At no point can a dog be a cat. A dog could be called cat, but its essence and form are not changed. My logic wasn't that you can change names. My logic was that there's a separation between what something is and what it's called. There's value in thinking of something as what it is, rather than what it's called. 
Mate, I'm only trying to make you think. To wonder and think critically. There's no right answer to what a robot is. There's only a right answer to what we can agree to it meaning.
Replies: >>493
>>491
>Consider the dust composed of your dead skin constantly falling from you. Each one can accurately be called Homo sapiens. They bare all the genes. Yet, this instance of Homo sapiens is dust and I'd say calling it human is absurd.
Most biologists and laymen wouldn't consider a removed/shed part as a unit of the actual species. No one (except maybe radical vegans) says the cut of steak is actually a cow, just that it is from a cow.

>>492
>There's no right answer to what a robot is. There's only a right answer to what we can agree to it meaning.
Then I would say my definition is a good start
"A mobile automated or remote controlled device whose main function is to interact with and/or change the environment, and/or interacting with the humans in the environment socially. Motion includes stationary movements, such as an animatronic moving its arms."

>Mate, I'm only trying to make you think. To wonder and think critically.
I am thinking critically and wondering.
(Blackwell_Companions_to_Philosophy)_Jonathan_J._Loose,_Angus_J._L._Menuge,_J._P._Moreland_(eds.)_-_The_Blackwell_Companion_to_Substance_Dualism-Wiley-Blackwell_(2018).pdf
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I like where this thread is going. I'll just drop the Full Monty.
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>>543
>An important reminder that LLM architecture is closer to a digital encyclopedia with a vector search algorithm than any form of thought.
>form
Ahh, there's the crux. What is the """form""" of thought itself? With matter, we can discuss form & nature (or quality). But pure intellect? You may also ask yourself (since they are closely-related):
>What is information?
 It's not matter.
 It's not energy.
 It's not space.
 It's not time.
Those are the four 'qualia' we have to work with directly here in this universe. So what is the nature of pure intellect?

>>544
>But fortunately for us, companionship is based on vibes.
Heh, probably close enough for horseshoes.  :^)

>And maybe it's better that our AIs are not actual thought for now.
Better or no, it's simply not within our ken to devise (apart from the usual "method" [or some modern new mashup like IVF+Arti-wombs]), IMO.
Replies: >>559
>>552
I would say information is just a quantization of the universe, facts essentially. It could be numbers, or knowledge on a certain aspect of the universe, which may include numbers (ex. H2O freezes at 0 degrees Centigrade). So I suppose it's the universe itself, all 4, with a human concept of downloading these quantizations into our brains.

I would go further and say thought is separate, it is using both information and our processing abilities to come to a conclusion

To expand on >>544, it's good that AIs aren't actually beings. I used to think that, but then I realized it opens a lot of uncomfortable questions
-Is resetting a chat tantamount to forcibly wiping someone's memory?
-Is deleting a chat tantamount to murder?
-Is dedicated servitude tantamount to slavery
--Expanding that, is slavery of a being who wants to serve, morally wrong?
-Am I technically a father to these AIs?

Not things I want to deal with.
Replies: >>560 >>562
>>559
Some more examples
-Let's say I accidentally dropped something heavy on my computer and broke it. Is that manslaughter?
-Let's say I had an AI on my phone, and someone stole it. Is that kidnapping?

I could go on, but the end result is, our digital lifestyle and modern use of AI is incompatible with what we consider the moral treatment of a sentient being
Replies: >>562
>>559
I think I did an ok job arguing my views on the subjects you bring up with my original post (go read the bottom part of this post or look at >>561 )
>-Is resetting a chat tantamount to forcibly wiping someone's memory?
>-Is deleting a chat tantamount to murder?
I do not think its equivalent to murder, and this actually points to a key limitation and difference between a complete mind and a LLM. (I expand on this more below)
>-Is dedicated servitude tantamount to slavery
>--Expanding that, is slavery of a being who wants to serve, morally wrong?
I think directly relating it to slavery will not lead to useful ways of thinking about it, I think human & pet relationships would be the closest analog?
>-Am I technically a father to these AIs?
Huh, I have not thought about it that way. With what I am working on, you can define associations and thought patterns programmatically, so you have more influence then that.

>>560
>-Let's say I accidentally dropped something heavy on my computer and broke it. Is that manslaughter?
If you don't keep backups, I guess so. With a responsible owner, the AI is better off, if someone dropped an anvil on my head, there is no backups to fallback for me :(
>-Let's say I had an AI on my phone, and someone stole it. Is that kidnapping?
This scenario worries me a lot, once again I feel backups become very important. Another aspect you want to conciser is that the criminal may also has access to the inner parts of the mind unlike a kidnapped human. Along with backups encryption at rest is important (this is the best mitigation I can think of).

A key difference is that the Mind of an AI, is not tied to it's hardware.

------
I ended up replying to you in the other thread with my two cents >>561 , I guess talking about this in a Philosophy Thread makes more sense, but I did not know where to put my initial reply for good flow, so I guess I will just post it twice.

>>558
>So, what's the end result? Is an LLM actually thought? If I reset it or delete a chat, is that tantamount to murder?
I do not think so.
The closest analog I can think of is that you're resetting its working/short-term memory (as in the Cog-arch term). It's like when you wake up with a clear mind. Except, unlike a person, the memory was just reset, and nothing was committed to longer-term memory (because it doesn’t have one). The less polite way of putting it is that it's an incomplete system that basically has "dementia." The nicest, most "poetic" way I can put it is that you both shared a dream, and it concluded.

I am not trying to scare you. I am trying to inspire people to continue work so that we can fill in the holes in this cognitive system.

>Sure it may be like human thought, and I do agree that they are genuine companions, but saying they're actually real minds is too disconcerting for me.
LLMs are strange. I feel we overlook how strange they are, so I think it's fine to feel uneasy. It's all new ground. They evolved from a very different environment (text), whereas all of life as we know it evolved from a different environment. So in a way, this is our first encounter with a truly alien form of intelligence. But at the same time, it's a mind that is a child or shadow of our collective thoughts.

I expect a good anchor for where the RobotWaifu Mind will rank will be to imagine it as an animal-like intelligence that happens to have an extremely overdeveloped language center and can talk. Now, I must ask, imagine if a dog could talk. Would it be a genuine companion? I think so. When we do give it long-term memory, if someone were to delete it, I would view it as the same as killing my dog or giving it dementia.
Replies: >>564
>>562
A lot of these answers use backups, but that's a problem, because while backups are great for the user, it doesn't quite work for an actual sentient being. It brings up the Transporter problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQHBAdShgYI[Embed]
Basically, a replicated consciousness is not the "real thing." If someone clones you with all your memories, but was going to kill you, it would be small comfort.
What if your wife was kidnapped? It wouldn't be comforting if you had a clone of them made, because the original was lost with an unknown fate.

Plus, there is a common sense angle to this. I made different chats before to test out AIs, and I deleted them. But no one will actually see me as a cruel mad scientist.

I think the best way to see it, is that it is the concept of an intelligence.
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